At church today I listened while two of my friends (both of whom are leaders in the church) began to “discuss” their view of Hell. The one friend stated, “I don’t believe in Hell” and the other friend responded with something like “If you don’t believe in hell, then why even believe Jesus is the Son of God?”. I hold to a particular idea concerning hell, but wanted to get some perspective from the OS4T group. To be specific, here are two questions I’d like to ask:
1. Does Hell exist? (Concept: If it does exist, who goes there, why, for how long, etc)
2. Is the belief in Hell foundational to Christian Theology?
Hell is a colored word to me. For example, if I said the word “campfire” then some of you might start singing verses of Kum-bai-jah in your head while eating smores. If I said “Hell”, I’m sure most of you may have emotion and imagery that accompanies that word. Regardless, I’m looking forward to the feedback.
Drew,
At work right now but looking forward to commenting on this tonight. I’m also looking forward to others thoughts on the subject. I noticed you didn’t actually share your thoughts…would love to hear your thoughts on it too. BoB
BOB – I have thoughts, but I really want to see what others say first
Drew… I would like to see you with a leet cool avatar. Ready Set Go!
I’m with Josh…..sign up for Gravatar and then upload your pic here – http://en.gravatar.com/
BoB
PS – In case you are wondering how it works…as best I can tell, when you go to a Gravatar enabled website (like this site) the website contacts Gravatar and says “Hey, do you have a registered user with this email address?” and if so, prestowhamo, your avatar icon shows up. You can register multiple email address for the same account at Gravatar so that no matter which email account you use at various sites, your Gravatar automagically shows up. I think you can also assign certain pictures to certain email address…they thought of everything
Have fun! BoB
Like my picture?
Welcome fellow Gravatar! Great pic!
I believe Hell is a waiting place where there is torment.
2Pe 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved to judgment;
Luk 16:23 And in hell he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Those in hell are there until judgement.
(sucks for people who were born 3000 years ago… OR maybe its a place in another dimension of which there is no time.) Interesting….
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
After judgement those in hell will be cast into the lake of fire.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
And in the lake of fire, they will die… cease to exist… be destroyed…
Mat 10:28 And fear not them who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
I do not believe people will be tormented for eternity. It’s not in God’s character. AND it is not clear in the Bible anything about SUFFERING for eternity (to my knowledge) I do believe the lake of fire will burn for eternity. Just not the souls in it.
I probably have more to say but I gotta go get the boys from school!
Peace out!
I hope my post isn’t confusing… I posted thoughts followed by scriptures relating to those thoughts.
So its
Thoughts…
Scriptures….
Thoughts….
Scriptures….
NOT
Scriptures….
Thoughts…. : )
I’m pretty sure I’m not allowed to be the first to respond to my own comment but hey…
You brought an interesting point to my attention that I hadn’t noticed before. Before I address this point, though, I want to give a super brief history of my family’s beliefs on hell.
All my life I was taught that people did NOT burn in hell for eternity with the simple explanation that “that doesn’t really sound like God.” Now, I fully agree that sending people to an eternal damnation of burning agony is not congruent with MY understanding of the character of God.
However, the only piece of scripture provided to back this unconventional theology was one that you’ve already mentioned:
“And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.” (Rev 20:14)
But this doesn’t satisfy as a an argument that people will cease to exist in the lake of fire. It is rather ambiguous as to exactly what it means for “death and hell” to be cast into the lake of fire. It sounds more poetic than anything, and could be interpreted in a number of ways.
Now, personally, no hell works out great for me. I can hardly bare to think of my friends who managed to live this life without finding Christ burning for eternity. So, along with my parents, I used this verse to sooth my conscious concerning my apathy toward proselytization for most of my life.
But as I got older and started reading the Bible myself I realized that this was not the picture I found painted therein. Specifically, I changed my mind when I read a passage in Matthew where Jesus, talking about hell, repeats a refrain three times “wear their worm never dies, and the fire is never quenched” (Matt 9:44-48). (Note that some translations only record this phrase once, opposed to three times.)
However, you mentioned Matt 10:28, which I have read before but never noted the phrase “who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.” Though I don’t think this can be interpreted for certain that souls will indeed cease to exist once thrown into the lake of fire, I it is certainly worth considering.
So in sum, I still don’t have a nailed down theology of hell and am open to further investigation of the matter. Thus I look forward to any insights anyone has, and hopefully I will be able to study the matter more thoroughly.
Peace! – Josh Parrott
This is an advertisement for Bob’s post, which I didn’t get to finish because I’m pressed for time, but I thought was excellent.
I’m off to class
xao
Josh P,
Welcome to OSFT! Thanks for the great reply to Drew’s post. I am looking forward to any response you have to mine. It sounds like I am about at the same place as you – “still don’t have a nailed down theology of hell and am open to further investigation of the matter”. Hungry for truth, BoB
hey thanks for the warm welcome.
I don’t really have much to say in response to your post except that I like it. I think to understand something like hell we have to do exactly what you did: examine what the bible says about it, determine exactly what the authors had in mind when they did mention it, and be objective in your study.
That last point is where we all struggle, which I attribute to church. Not that I mean to say church is bad by any means, but simply that there are very solid structured theologies about everything that may or may not have any basis on the Bible. Therefore, when we read a verse that is traditionally related to hell, we see that verse through a colored lens with a pre-formed interpretation of what it means.
well, gotta go again (life… why can’t it just stop for in depth conversations about hell?)
Hi All,
I hope to have time later to respond with a more detailed post. For now, I would like to recommend a couple of books by people who claim to have visited hell. One of them claims to have died and visited and was later revived, and another claims to have been taken there in the night during some sort of vision. I am not saying that either of these testimonies is valid. One must read and discern. However, the books are both extremely thought-provoking and worth the read. I believe that both help to remind the reader that we must focus on the eternal instead of the temporal.
The books mentioned above are:
http://www.amazon.com/My-Descent-Into-Death-Second/dp/0385513763/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1254770936&sr=8-1
http://www.amazon.com/23-Minutes-Hell-Bill-Wiese/dp/1591858828/ref=pd_sim_b_7
As for the person who said, “If you don’t believe in hell, then why even believe Jesus is the Son of God?” . . . that is a tragic position indeed. Is this person saying that they are only a Christian because they fear eternal torment? I would like my children to love me and do what is right because I am their loving parent . . . not because they think I will tan their hide if they don’t.
Or, is your friend simply trying to say that you can’t believe in Christ without believing in hell?
Josh, I personally believe that hell has no time dimension and that one moment is as eternity. Something we can not even begin to comprehend.
I’m looking forward to reading all of the posts on this topic.
Welcome Miss Tearious! Glad to have a new commenter! BoB
1. Does Hell exist? (Concept: If it does exist, who goes there, why, for how long, etc)
2. Is the belief in Hell foundational to Christian Theology?
Drew,
I had my thoughts on hell that I was planning to share here…but before I did I spent a few hours researching what the Bible has to say about hell. I realized that I have no idea what I really think about hell. So rather than try to answer a question that I don’t know the answer to…I thought I would just share some of my observations. The following is much like a stream of consciousness writing exercise…it captures many of my thoughts as I researched this topic. Wish I had more time to dedicate to the search.
First of all, I was surprised how little the Bible actually discusses the subject. For example, I was surprised to find that in all of Paul’s writings he doesn’t use the word hell one time – that’s 14 out of 26 books of the New Testament. The only time he uses something even remotely like the concept of “hell” is in 1 Corinthians 15:55 –
“Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?”
(Sometimes death in this verse is translated “grave” or “hades”)
I read similar things on many sites regarding Paul not mentioning “hell” but I haven’t had a chance to verify it completely. I did do a few searches on Biblegateway.com and it appears to be true. I would love to hear from someone with any other exceptions besides the verse I mentioned above.
Secondly, I noticed that the Bible does seem to have a very frequent theme regarding a judgment when we die. Whether its wheat, or fig trees, or goats and sheep, there is a theme of God’s judgment. In fact, when I searched for “hell” as a keyword in various translations I typically found 17 or less references. However, the word judgment appears over 400 times in some translations. Even Paul discusses this judgment, for example, 2 Corinthians 5:10 –
“For we must all stand before Christ to be judged. We will each receive whatever we deserve for the good or evil we have done in this earthly body.”
Now according to Peter “They are being kept for the day of judgment, when ungodly people will be destroyed.” Destroyed doesn’t sound like burning forever but rather like gone, eliminated, or, according to the dictionary – “do away with; put an end to.” The scary part is that the Bible makes it clear that none of us are godly (that means we all fit the description of “ungodly people” that will be destroyed.
As a kid I used to think of the judgment like a person preparing food for dinner. I realize that my imagery on this may sound coarse and crude but it has stuck with me over the years. I have always pictured the judgment day a lot like how we clean grapes for dinner. The grapes all started from a seed, enjoyed rain and suffered drought, grew and were eventually picked by a farmer and placed into a little plastic bag. Now the judgment day: I am leaning over my sink with the bright kitchen light on. I examine each grape and based on its characteristics I either throw it in the keeper bowl or into the garbage disposal. I know what I’m looking for and I am the judge. Good, firm, smooth grapes make the cut and wrinkly rotten grapes don’t. It’s that simple. Now all the grapes are dirty and will require some rinsing off because none of them are clean on their own. Some I can salvage by cutting off a sore spot or a mushy end…but some grapes are just simply bad, beyond repair. If you think that sounds wrong, compare my childhood take on judgment day to Matthew 3:11 –
11 “I baptize with water those who repent of their sins and turn to God. But someone is coming soon who is greater than I am—so much greater that I’m not worthy even to be his slave and carry his sandals. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.[e] 12 He is ready to separate the chaff from the wheat with his winnowing fork. Then he will clean up the threshing area, gathering the wheat into his barn but burning the chaff with never-ending fire.” Much like the fig tree should be cut down and also similar to how the goats and sheep will be separated.
The problem with my grape illustration is that people are not grapes. I can imagine God in that way only if I picture how emotionally disconnected we are from ants and how we don’t worry too much if we step on a few as we walk down the sidewalk. The problem is the Bible makes it abundantly clear that God loves us and thinks of us as His children.
I try to rationalize this in my mind by remembering that God is holy and just and that sinful man cannot go unpunished…much like Jesus describes in Matthew 25 when he talks about the Goats and the Sheep. The scary thing is that he ends his goats and sheep analogy with this sentence – 46 “And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous will go into eternal life.”
Now that verse clearly mentions eternal punishment. Paul might not mention it but Jesus says it pretty straightforward – eternal punishment. It is hard enough for me to imagine my heavenly father “destroying” someone, but punishing them FOREVER, I just can’t get my mind around that….especially when Jesus says in Matthew 18:14 – “In the same way, it is not my heavenly Father’s will that even one of these little ones should perish.” Because of this last verse I have always wondered if there is some reason that the almighty ruler of the universe would not be able to prevent people from entering “eternal punishment”. Is there some grand logic that I don’t understand that demands a thing like “hell” in order for a perfect God, humans, and free-will to exist simultaneously? I don’t know the answer to that.
I do know that for many years Christians and culture in general didn’t seem to have a hard time believing in a just and holy God that sentenced people to hell. It seems that the current generation would like to think of God only as loving and peaceful…which I believe he is. But the Bible also describes him as the a “consuming fire” and the “judge of all” and as having “a sharp sword with two edges” and a “jealous God”. Could it be that we are trying to make God into our image instead of accepting Him as He really is. Maybe we also have made ourselves great in our own eyes and that partly explains our doubt about God sending such amazing creatures to eternal punishment. We act is if by doubting in a hell we have somehow overridden the authority, majesty, and final judgment of our own Creator.
I am not saying I believe in a hell or don’t believe in a hell. The more I researched on the Internet the more confused I became. For example, many people provided detailed research saying that the words Hades, Sheol, Hell, and the grave all just simply mean the “unseen place” (or the other side, the spiritual realm, etc). Apparently the Jewish people had no concept of “hell” like we think of it today.
God does not appear to want anyone of us to go to hell or to experience whatever the consequences of the judgment are. I already stated above that He is not willing that any should perish. He is our Father and Creator and loves us deeply. Apparently, for reasons I wish I understood, a judgment is coming regardless and the consequences may be severe. I may not understand why this judgment is necessary or why the consequences are so severe but I do know that God is dreading the day and He has designed a plan to save us from ourselves (and from His justice):
John 3:17 – God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but to save the world through him.
As I stated earlier, there is clearly a coming judgment. As a Christian, I believe that I will likely be spared the consequences of that judgment but not necessarily the judgment itself. In other words, I believe I will most likely still have to give an account of my life and God will judge me. I will be sentenced to hell based on what I know of myself. But then, in my humility and despair, my Savior will speak on my behalf. He will not argue that I was a good person. He will not say that I am worthy of being saved because of my great merit. He will simply present himself as the payment for what I owe the Judge. (My rotten grape will suddenly be a juicy raisin in the light of my Savior.) I know that sounds weird but that’s where I am right now. I believe the above on faith but God is still working daily to bring me to a better knowledge of His character and an understanding of His truth.
So, if pressed for an answer to your questions, knowing what I know now, here are my current opinion/beliefs and my answers to your questions:
1. Does Hell exist? (Concept: If it does exist, who goes there, why, for how long, etc) Yes
a. Yes – But whether hell just simply means the “unseen place”, a holding place after death, a garbage dump just outside of Jerusalem, or a fiery pit I don’t know.
b. Who goes there, for how long, etc are all determined by the Judge.
2. Is the belief in Hell foundational to Christian Theology? No
a. Paul didn’t make a big deal about it.
b. The Bible mentions “hell” only 14 times in the NIV translation…several of the 14 times are from repeat tellings of the same verse in multiple Gospels. Most of the New Testament translations of the word “hell” come from the word “Gehenna” which to the people of that time period literally meant the location just outside of Jerusalem where they burned their garbage and the Romans left criminals to die.
c. Belief in hell doesn’t matter if you have already been saved from whatever hell is or is not.
i. I say that not as a scare tactic but only to point out that it doesn’t have to be foundational. Sure, many may come to faith out of fear of hell. I was not drawn to God by fear but by His love. If fear of hell is your motivation for salvation than belief in hell could be foundational to your faith. If however, you would serve God regardless of the possibility of Hell, then it’s not foundational because it has no impact on your faith (or theology).
I hesitate to include any links (for fear I would imply agreement with the complete contents of any given site) but I thought it would be good to give at least one example of the sites that I have been researching on this topic. Click here for more background – http://www.what-the-hell-is-hell.com/HellStats/hell.htm
I’m not saying that I agree with everything on this site…it just represents a sampling of what is available. They even show actual pictures of “hell” (scroll to the bottom to find the link to the pictures). This site claims there is NO fiery hell…I’m not there yet but I’m open to that possibility….in fact, I welcome it.
Thanks for the question Drew….it forced me to ask myself more questions (the mark of a great question)….the answers will come….”Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.”
BOB,
What I hear you saying is:
1) You are certain of God’s judgement and that those who are “not good grapes” will go somewhere, you are just uncertain as to where they go or for how long?
2) Hell is not foundational to your belief system. You implied this based on the fact that you won’t go “hell” and you therefore have no need to be concerned by it whether it exists or not.
Drew,
You are a great listener. Wish I could have summarized it like you did…instead I have the beginnings of carpal tunnel syndrome. In the spirit of making my condition worse….here is a response to your summary:
1. I am certain of nothing regarding what the other side will be like, mostly since I haven’t been there (not even for a short time in a NDE)
2. I can’t be sure I’m not going to hell…at least not in my own power. For some reason I am not that interested in imagining what hell might be like or fearing going there. I am much more interested in understanding God and His purpose for me. I am only interested in understanding if there is a hell and what it is like in so much as it might help me to better understand the nature of God and his plans for this planet (specifically me and my loved ones).
I love you Bob.
I have always assumed everyone would be judged, everyone found guilty, and those who have received Christ as Savior would be forgiven because Christ took the punishment of their sin upon himself.
I was wrong.
Not everyone will be judged…at least not based on this verse:
John 5:24 – “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.”
Bob, that was awesome, I enjoyed reading it
- Josh Parrott
I’ve actually written an entire book on this topic–”Hell? No! Why You Can Be Certain There’s No Such Place As Hell,” (if you’re interested, you can get a free Ecopy of my book at my website: http://www.ricklannoye.com), but if I may, let me share one of the many points I make in it.
If one is willing to look, there’s substantial evidence contained in the gospels to show that Jesus opposed the idea of Hell. For example, in Luke 9:51-56, is a story about his great disappointment with his disciples when they actually suggested imploring God to rain FIRE on a village just because they had rejected him. His response: “You don’t know what spirit is inspiring this kind of talk!” Presumably, it was NOT the Holy Spirit. He went on, trying to explain how he had come to save, heal and relieve suffering, not be the CAUSE of it.
So it only stands to reason that this same Jesus, who was appalled at the very idea of burning a few people, for a few horrific minutes until they were dead, could never, ever burn BILLIONS of people for an ETERNITY!
True, there are a few statements that made their way into the gospels which place Hell on Jesus lips, but these adulterations came along many decades after his death, most likely due to the Church filling up with Greeks who imported their belief in Hades with them when they converted.
Thanks Rick, I’ll definetly make my way to your website eventually. Nice input.
Let’s delve a little deeper shall we?
My hope is not necessarily to establish the solid existence of hell or what hell is, but to abolish the lies concerning hell. Often times the best way to eliminate delusion is to combat it with reality. Unfortunately people construct realities based on falsehood…it’s like the saying goes, “if everyone believes the lie, does it then become truth?”
In my personal search for answers concerning hell here are some motivational questions that arose beyond the general construct:
Is the Bible the infallible word of God?
All the references within this post concerning hell have been (best I can tell) based on scriptures found in the bible. What if the Bible is wrong due to improper interpretation, translation, cultural reference, etc. How far do we take what we read literally concerning issues like hell? Should ALL things be based on Biblical validation?
Is preaching Hell from the pulpit Biblical?
Of course from my previous statement, perhaps whether something is Biblical or not can actually have nothing to do with whether it is truthful of not and by truthful I mean, what God intended. Most of the great historical revivals used the preaching of hell as their great motivational fear to allow the listener to either “turn or burn”. If hell doesn’t exist, then is this just manipulation…withcraft….false doctrine? Were some of the great revivals of the past actually motivated by a spirit of religion rather than the Spirit of God? Has the very church today been built on foundations less than stable?
I could dump a dump-truck load on you guys, but I’m feeling the need to stop…for now. The reason I started this blog was that a friend of mine who had grown up deep within the church and yet had been in “relationship” with a “father” like god for some time seemed to “wake up” and say, “Hell (concept of hell that he’d been taught) is not fitting with the character of this “Person” or god that I’ve been in relationship with. I no longer believe in hell (against all that I’ve been taught by the supposed truth holders and religious leaders of my time).” I tip my hat off to that person (you know who you are), I will swim against the stream with you even as we are now.
The MAIN thing I despise about our teachings\use of “Hell” is that is seems a lot of people use it in the church as a scare tactic due to lack of real power.
For instance, you see Jesus traveling around healing the sick and feeding the multitudes, they are moved by compassion, and get saved. I mean come on. If some guy gave me and my whole family along with 4,999 other dudes some bread and fish from a few pieces then on top of that made my blind eyes see or arm grow or something, I’m gonna get me some of that!
The modern day church however goes around telling the world “Turn or burn sinners!” No healing….no feeding the hungry (miraculously)… Sure it works sometimes but does it really produce good fruit? The way I see it Many people in the church live in fear of an angry God rather than being in relationship with a loving God.
(Obviously the above statements aren’t true for every church and there are more and more churches going against that flow)
Jesus presented the Good News of salvation and eternal life. We present the bad news of eternal damnation if you don’t accept the good news salvation method. Just doesn’t seem right.
Josh – well said….completely agree…I think you might like this book – Crazy Love: http://www.crazylovebook.com/
If you completely agree Bob, are you saying that we should NOT use scare tactics in the church and therefore should NOT preach “hell” from the pulpit and even…..that some of the greatest “christian” revivals of all time were simply….wrong?
Nope…just that I agree with Josh. Its more of a preference. If some respond to “Sinners in the hands of an Angry God” and turn their lives in God’s direction…praise God….after all, we should each work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. If others read “Crazy Love” and fall madly in love with our heavenly Father because they are a “sinner in the hands of a loving God”…praise God, after all, God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Man is always screwing things up but God uses every opportunity to draw us to Him…love, fear,…or even sorrow:
2 Corinthians 7:8-10 – Even if I caused you sorrow by my letter, I do not regret it. Though I did regret it—I see that my letter hurt you, but only for a little while— yet now I am happy, not because you were made sorry, but because your sorrow led you to repentance. For you became sorrowful as God intended and so were not harmed in any way by us. Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death.
Well said.
My 2 cents:
Jesus said, “I am . . . Life.” The most well known verse in all of scripture (can be seen at any professional sporting event in America) is John 3:16. Who gets eternal life in that verse? I am pretty sure it is those who believe in (entered a relationship with) Jesus Christ.
Notice that there was not eternal life promised to the non-believers, only in a less desirable place. He offered eternal life, out of Love (his motivation for all things) to those who believe in Him.
God is the source of all life. If there was eternal life in hell – eternal torment, then it would be God keeping these people/souls alive for no redemptive reasons, but simply for punitive purposes. Hard to gather the Love motive here. That doesn’t jive with who Christ came to show us God is.
I really think this boils down to the very core of Free Will – If I choose God I Choose Life, Life Eternal. If I don’t choose God, God respects my Free Will and allows death (1st and 2nd). If God is Life, then to choose other than God is to choose Death.
I agree with the earlier post about the wicked and even Satan himself becoming consumed in the Lake of Fire.
As Malachi 4:3 puts it:
“Then you will trample down the wicked; they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day when I do these things,” says the LORD Almighty.”
God doesn’t want any to perish, but will ultimately respect our choice even if it be against life, eternal or otherwise.
So:
Hell – real
Eternal – yes, eternal separation from God
Torment forever – No, consumed and become Ash
God – Source of all life, ultimate love, and giver of Free Will
I don’t worship Christ and follow Jesus because I am afraid of Hell. I do so because of who He is and what He has done and continues to do for me. I don’t fear hell, I love Christ and therefore have chosen not to be eternally separated from Him. Mercifully he had a plan for us to be together – forever.
Happy to dive deeper in this, but I think that sums up where I am. Blessings
I believe that Hell is a holding place for unbelievers until after the Millenium reign. The White throne judgement takes place and death and hell are destrooyed or burnt up in the lake of fire.
20:11 I saw a great white throne, and him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. There was found no place for them.
Revelation
20:12 I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and they opened books. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged out of the things which were written in the books, according to their works.
20:13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it. Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them. They were judged, each one according to his works.
20:14 Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
20:15 If anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire
That’s an interesting concept and worth looking into.
Are you implying then that Hell actually lasts for a period of 1000 years and then it ends? Like an eternal “time-out”? That does seem more like what a parent would do. I guess by this time however there would be no point in “correcting” the child.
Is there eternal punishment and/or limited punishment with your theory?
-Drew