The goal of OS4T.com is to provide an open forum to share and discuss “Truth”. All of us gain new insights every year about spiritual, relational , and other types of “truths” or “principles”. This site provides a safe place for you to pass on the wisdom you have gained and an opportunity to evaluate others’ perspectives as you refine your own conclusions.
I thoroughly enjoyed this week’s message at North Point Community Church in Alpharetta, GA but more importantly, I realized that the intended audience was people like me….people that have been so focused on God’s personal and moral law that we have been distracted from understanding and participating in God’s global purposes. The message is a call to “good Christians”….great, you are living right….but what about the Ninevites? Continue reading →
I came across this in my reading today, and the second part of the verse really jumped out at me.
Luke 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is an abomination in the sight of God.
So what do you all think “for that which is highly esteemed among men” is referring to? Hmm . . . things highly esteemed among men . . .
I asked my older two children to name some things they think are highly esteemed by men. It was interesting to hear from a child’s perspective what they think are the most valued things by adults. Here are some of their answers:
Fame (For Being an Athlete, Movie Star, Politician, or Really Smart Person)
So anyway, it got me to thinking. We are so “programmed” and brainwashed by our culture to value the same things the rest of the “world” values. It makes me wonder . . . how much of what we are unconsciously ( and even worse, CONSCIOUSLY) striving for does the Lord see as an abomination? I have a feeling that most of what we place importance on God sees as idols in our lives. I am wondering from all of you, what do YOU think this verse means? What do YOU think ” the things highly esteemed by man” in the verse is referring to? What do you think God “highly esteems”?
Like most Christians, I enjoy sharing the “good news”. I’m not the type that walks up to strangers in the grocery store to ask if they’re “saved” or if they have “accepted Christ as savior” but, in my own way, I share the hope that is in me. I consider myself to be an analytical person and I enjoy studying philosophy, logic, and “Truth”. I remember as a kid trying to understand God and wanting to develop a relationship with Him through an increase in knowledge about Him. I read the Bible, studied science, and listened to older people that I perceived to be wise and successful in life. I grew in “faith” but I couldn’t say that I knew for sure that there was a God…only that it seemed logical to me and that I thought the evidence for His existence was overwhelming.
Over the years, but especially recently, I have run into people that seem to think that faith in God is delusional. They think that Christians (and theists in general) have “fooled” themselves into believing in God to satisfy emotional needs or because of ignorance they have been fooled by the money loving preachers into supporting the church and pronouncing faith in God to avoid Hell. Many of us have witnessed even the most devout atheist call on God when disaster strikes or life gets out-of-control…but that is arguably just another example of a delusional faith. So is faith delusional? I think it can be. I don’t doubt that many people’s faith in God is rooted in fear, or ignorance, or emotional insecurity. Is there such a thing as a “true faith” that springs forth from reality and not from emotional self-deceit or fear?
I have found that no matter how convincing my arguments or logical my reasoning, people do not typically come to have faith in God because of reason. Reason may open the door to true faith but without an encounter with God a person will typically continue to live with some doubt of God’s existence…or worse, doubt about God’s love for and interest in them as an individual. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying that faith in God is illogical or unreasonable. On the contrary, I think it is by far the most reasonable assumption and, when thoroughly studied, the only logical conclusion. Some great examples of the logic and reason I am referring to are detailed in books like Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis, Unshakable Foundations: Contemporary Answers to Crucial Questions about the Christian Faith by Norman Geisler & Peter Bocchino, What’s So Great about Christianity by Dinesh D’Souza, or The End of Reason: A Response to the New Atheists by Ravi Zacharias. There are literally thousands of examples of such books, many written by graduates of Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Cambridge, and Oxford. The dilemma is that there are an equal number of books written by equally intelligent authors supporting a case for no God.
The problem is that many people are trying to prove or disprove God within the realm of the natural world and the bounds of scientific observation. If God created the Universe(s), then HE was OUTSIDE of the universe(s) at the time of creation. We may never be able to prove or disprove something that is outside of our ability to “study”. That may be why theists rarely become atheists from logical discussion and the same reason why atheists rarely become theists because of logical discussions. There is literally NO END to the arguments for and against God’s existence. While they are fun to participate in, they usually only lead to frustration and anger for anyone not willing to agree to disagree.
So why do I have faith? How can I trust that my faith is based in reality? How can I know that God loves me and knows me specifically? It is not only because of the reading and thinking I have done. It is because of what I have experienced. So here is what I”m going to do. The rest of this post is going to be used to document my first encounter with God. I would like any believer that reads this post to please take a minute and share the story of your first encounter with God as well.
I am sharing this not because I think that the knowledge of my experience alone will be enough to bring someone to faith in God…it is, after all, just another bit of knowledge, just another story, and will never be enough to bring someone else to faith. I do hope, however, that by reading my story, it would encourage some non-believer to consider the possibility of God. By being open to the possibility, it is my hope that they will seek their own experience with the God of the universe and know Him not as a “logical conclusion” but as a “Father”. So here goes:
My first encounter with God is not a particularly miraculous story from a “third party observer” standpoint but for me it was an epiphany and redirected the entire course of my life. The moment I am referring to happened my senior year in high school but let me give you a quick recap of my “religious” life up to that point first. My parents were both raised Catholic but when I was young they got divorced and my mom married into the Baptist church. I grew up baptist and learned a lot about God but still had more questions than answers. In late elementary/early middle school I became convinced of God’s existence, mostly logically, but I do remember submitting my life to Christ and “feeling something”, but as real as it felt to me at the time, I wasn’t sure years later if it was my own emotions or God’s presence. I felt joy and peace but I didn’t really experience an “epiphany” or anything beyond normal human emotion. I do remember noticing at that point in my life something very different about the character and confidence of what I considered to be “mature” Christians…something that I hoped I would develop as my relationship with Christ grew. Things went well for several years and my faith continued to survive…until high school. I remember being so confused during my high school years by the mixed messages I received at Church, Home, School, at my after school job at Burger King, and from my friends. I became very short-sighted, selfish, and “base” in my behavior. My grades were suffering, my relationships with my friends and girlfriend were suffering, and I often felt depressed, confused, and lost. So that brings me to my senior year….
I was dating a girl named Bethany (now my wife) and I was going to go and see her get inducted into the National Honor Society at our High School. I had gotten off work late and was unable to make it on time. I was so disappointed that I missed the event. As I was walking back out to my pickup truck, I saw my Chemistry teacher in the hallway, leaving for the night. His name was Phil Short and I highly respected him because of the amazing life he had lived and the way that he treated me and my classmates (no matter how poorly they treated him in return). He saw me and said “hi” and began talking with me. Mr Short was a Christian but also a bit of a rebel. During the course of our conversation he began to share things with me that I had never heard of before, never thought of before, and that resonated with me as Truth (truth claims about creation, Jesus, purpose, eternity,etc). I started having those old feelings of joy and peace swell up inside me. We talked for a long time and then Mr. Short said he had to get going. I walked out to my truck feeling a little confused but a lot hopeful.
I sat down in my Chevy, closed the door, and looked up at the beautiful, clear, star-filled sky. I began to talk to God..not like a “prayer” but more like a conversation. I told Him that if He really existed then I wanted to know Him (something I had done many times before with no noticeable response from God). I wanted Him to confirm if what I just heard from Mr. Short was true. I wanted to know if He noticed me and if He had plans for me. At that moment, as I sat there pleading for God to make Himself known to me, I suddenly felt something I had never experienced before.
I felt completely overcome with what I knew was God’s presence. It felt like electricity was flowing through my body and like the full power of the universe was pressing in on me. I felt more peace, and love, and joy, and certainty of God’s presence than I ever thought was possible. I KNEW it was God. I KNEW that He loved me. I KNEW that He had specific plans for me and that He wanted to use me as much as I would allow Him to. I can’t tell you if the experience lasted for 3 seconds or 30 minutes but as I drove away that night I KNEW that I would NEVER doubt the existence of God or His love for me again. I recommitted my life to Christ Jesus that night and I am thankful for the light that He has brought into my life every day since then.
When I look back at the history of my life, that was the year my life “started”…the year I was “born again”…the year I became a new creation. My wife knows better than anyone the transformation that God made in my heart over the next few months.
I still struggle with sin, still have many questions, and still crave His presence, but I don’t doubt that He loves me like a perfect father.
I have only had a handful of experiences like this in my life. I go sometimes months or even years with nothing but then suddenly God shows up and surrounds me with His presence. Its not something someone can tell you about or explain to you in a way that will make it real for you. There isn’t something unique about me that makes God willing to “visit” me but not someone else. I believe He loves all people the same way. I believe He is pursuing everyone with the same passion and love. He is a gentleman though. He respects our free will…He is after-all the one who gave it to us. He will not make one person choose him. He calls us to repentance…but He doesn’t force us. He loves us while we are sinners. He loves us as we are. He has plans for us…according to Jeremiah 29:11 He has “plans for good, and not for evil, to give us a future and a hope”.
This post is getting long so I am going to wrap it up. If you are a believer, and you consider yourself to have an unneurotic faith, please click “reply” on this post and share your story of the first time you experienced God’s presence and the certainty of His love.
If you can’t immediately recall having experienced God then please consider turning off your computer, finding a quiet place away from everything, and calling out to God. I can’t promise that you will feel anything or experience anything…but, it won’t hurt to try. Remember though, God doesn’t respond well to demands…at least not based on the stories I’ve heard over the years or based on my own experience. Many people try to say things like “reveal yourself now or I am going to stop believing in you!” That never worked for me. I have never heard of anyone (although there may be an exception) hearing from God using that approach. God seems to respond best when we humble ourselves and when we seek Him on His terms. I may be wrong about this…if others leave their stories we may see something different..after all, God is not a formula…He does as He pleases. I’ll close with a few verses from the Bible though that seem to support my observations:
Isaiah 66:1-2
1 This is what the LORD says:
“Heaven is my throne,
and the earth is my footstool.
Where is the house you will build for me?
Where will my resting place be?
2 Has not my hand made all these things,
and so they came into being?”
declares the LORD.
“This is the one I esteem:
he who is humble and contrite in spirit,
and trembles at my word.
Daniel 10:11-12
11 He said, “Daniel, you who are highly esteemed, consider carefully the words I am about to speak to you, and stand up, for I have now been sent to you.” And when he said this to me, I stood up trembling.
12 Then he continued, “Do not be afraid, Daniel. Since the first day that you set your mind to gain understanding and to humble yourself before your God, your words were heard, and I have come in response to them.
James 4:5-10
5 What do you think the Scriptures mean when they say that the spirit God has placed within us is filled with envy?[a]6 But he gives us even more grace to stand against such evil desires. As the Scriptures say,
7 So humble yourselves before God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. 8 Come close to God, and God will come close to you. Wash your hands, you sinners; purify your hearts, for your loyalty is divided between God and the world. 9 Let there be tears for what you have done. Let there be sorrow and deep grief. Let there be sadness instead of laughter, and gloom instead of joy. 10 Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up in honor.
Psalm 25:8-10
8 Good and upright is the LORD;
therefore he instructs sinners in his ways.
9 He guides the humble in what is right
and teaches them his way.
2 Chronicles 33:11-13
11 So the LORD brought against them the army commanders of the king of Assyria, who took Manasseh prisoner, put a hook in his nose, bound him with bronze shackles and took him to Babylon. 12 In his distress he sought the favor of the LORD his God and humbled himself greatly before the God of his fathers. 13 And when he prayed to him, the LORD was moved by his entreaty and listened to his plea; so he brought him back to Jerusalem and to his kingdom. Then Manasseh knew that the LORD is God.
Psalm 18:27-28
27 You save the humble
but bring low those whose eyes are haughty.
28 You, O LORD, keep my lamp burning;
my God turns my darkness into light.
Writing this post has made me realize that I have let my relationship with God grow lax. I have let my focus drift to the stresses of life and my plans for myself and my family. I have been craving His presence for many months but haven’t taken time to humble myself before Him and “seek His face“. I am going to a men’s retreat in a couple weeks with some close friends of mine. Hopefully I will hear from God that weekend….or sooner.
As this week of Thanksgiving approaches, please consider carving out some time to be alone with the Lord. And, in the spirit of the Love Dare, if you are married with children, consider watching your kids and providing some quiet time for your spouse too. Blessings, Anthony
I had a conversation with a dear friend of mine the other night…a friend that is struggling in his pursuit of truth. I value his opinion and his passion for truth but I frequently find myself worried about him and what conclusions he will come to as he redefines his world view. I am worried because I know the importance of our worldviews in determining the decisions we make and the outcomes we experience.
So what does that have to do with “constructive discussions about truth”? Everything!!
Currently “Our Search for Truth” is slanted heavily towards a Christian worldview because the current participating authors happen to be various varieties of Christians. However, the goal of this site is not to sit around talking in Christianese. The goal of this site is pursuing truth by sharing our different perspectives and worldviews. It is my belief that when multiple people’s perspectives rub against each other the friction that is created by their differences exposes misperceptions and the truth is ultimately revealed. The Truth is what remains when all options are explored and all lies are exposed.
As a Christian I am frequently a witness to conversations where fellow Christians seem threatened or irritated by a non-Christian’s disbelief or their differing world view. Instead of responding with understanding and patience they judge, belittle, preach, or otherwise offend the nonbeliever.
Now before the “anti-Christians” get too excited about pointing their fingers in agreement with my last statement they need to be honest with themselves and admit that they are often just as guilty of destroying any opportunity for rational discussion.
What do you mean you think Halloween is evil?
For example, go to YouTube and find a “Christian” or an “Atheist” video. You won’t have to look far before you find an Atheist writing horrible, aggressive expletives meant to demean and ridicule the Christian. Then, right above or below their comment will be the immature Christian saying something like “You’ll burn in hell for that” or maybe something slightly nicer like “Repent and God may have mercy on your soul” (as if they know God is on their side in the discussion) – here are 32,000 examples.
For Christians:
Where does God stand on this issue? The Bible says that God did not send his son into this world to condemn the world but to save the world through Him. The Bible also says that God loved us while we were yet sinners….meaning God loved us before we liked Him, acted like Him, or thought like Him. The Bible portrays a Jesus that hung out with sinners, went to social events with “non-believers”, encouraged prostitutes to start over and give life another try, and as someone who always befriended the poor, down-trodden, and even the people that most everyone hated (like tax collectors). Where are the Christians that serve that Jesus? Where are the Christians that welcome uncomfortable conversations filled with opposing truth claims?
For non-Christians:
But what if you are an atheist or agnostic (or a believer in some other religion) and don’t really care what the Bible says or what Jesus was like? Does that give you free liberty to purposely offend (or avoid) Christians every chance you get? Now I can’t speak to “non-believers” on any particular moral grounds since, as some would argue, they have no moral system to leverage as a foundation. But, from what I understand of the “new atheists” they believe that there are intrinsic universal values (that have nothing to do with a creator) that tell us right from wrong and that form the basis for a humanistic code of ethics. Does your personal code of ethics (or conscience) lead you to believe it is better to try to understand others or does it lead you to believe you should drown out all ideas contrary to your own?
For everyone:
I am assuming that most people that have taken the time to read this far would agree with the 5th habit of Steven Covey’s “7 Habits of Highly Effective People”:
Seek First to Understand, Then to be Understood
He calls this concept the Principle of Mutual Understanding. Here is the summary provided by Wikipedia for Habit 5:
Habit 5 – Principle of Mutual Understanding: Covey warns that giving out advice before having empathetically understood a person and their situation will likely result in that advice being rejected. Thoroughly listening to another person’s concerns instead of reading out your own autobiography is purported to increase the chance of establishing a working communication.
The mission of OS4T is to “provide an open forum to share and discuss truth”. The prerequisite for an effective forum is “working communication”. I am hoping that as this site matures it will attract people with vast differences in beliefs that all share these four traits in common:
A commitment to seek first to understand before you try to be understood
Respect for others even when you vehemently disagree (and a willingness to agree to disagree)
A commitment to share and discuss with intellectual and emotional honesty.
A desire to pursue the truth even if it isn’t leading you where you thought it would
Back to my friend:
What does all this have to do with my friend? Here is what is going on in my mind that has me concerned:
I believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God that equips us for good works and abundant living and that its message of salvation is true.
Most Christians that my friend interacts with are not open to brutally honest dialog with someone who is struggling with tough questions about God and purpose.
This is good for the Atheists and, if they are right, it helps prevent my friend from wasting time on a non-existent God….but, if the Christian worldview is true, my friend will miss out on an opportunity to experience that truth. If I am right about the Bible being true, how will my friend arrive at the same conclusion if he comes to despise the hypocrisy, unauthenticness, and defensiveness of Christians?
For Christians:
God is not afraid of a lack of faith….He loved us while we were yet sinners….before we had faith. God “draws us to repentance by His kindness”. The only hope I have for my friend at this point is that he will experience the kindness of God even if he doesn’t experience the kindness of God’s people. I am begging you, if you are a Christian reading this post, please respond with gentleness to any anger, bitterness, loneliness, frustration or confusion a person may have that lacks your same faith. Before you “preach”…listen. Before you judge…love. Before you condemn….forgive. Before you slander…pray. Before you speak, think. Think about who you were the moment before you submitted your life to Christ. Think about the grace and love you experienced from God and from the person who led you to Truth. Pass that same Grace, and Love, and Truth on to someone else…not by nagging and judging but through understanding and kindness.
We are commanded by Christ to love our enemies and to do good to those who hate us. We don’t have to feel threatened or get defensive when someone thinks or feels differently than us. The Truth is the Truth. The truth is not afraid of being “found”. If you are so confident that you know the truth then why not share with others by first hearing them out and understanding them. Once you understand them you will be better prepared to explain why you think differently (if you still do after hearing them out).
For non-Christians:
The same goes for the Atheist…just for different reasons. You may not be motivated by devotion to Christ to love your enemies and to respond to them with kindness but if you truly believe you are right then it seems like you would want to share the reasons why you think Atheism is the truth. If Christians are ignorant and disillusioned in their beliefs then only rational dialog (tempered with kindness) will persuade them to see things your way. There can’t both be a God and not be a God. Someone is wrong and someone is right but, no matter who is right, there is no reason we can’t treat each other with respect and agree to disagree as we both pursue the same thing – TRUTH.
Blessings, BoB
PS – This post focuses on Christians and Atheists but the same thing holds true for agnostics, Muslims, Buddists, Hindus, etc. We can share our experiences and thoughts with respect and understanding….even if we never persuade each other to our way of thinking.
LET THE CONSTRUCTIVE CONVERSATIONS ABOUT TRUTH BEGIN
I have not read The Greatest Show on Earth: The Evidence for Evolution by Richard Dawkins, but I have read several articles about the book and heard/read several interviews with Mr. Dawkins. In the interviews, he states that it is beyond argument that the God of the Old Testament is a monster. He says that Christians often just say, oh, well, I’m a a New Testament Christian.
I am a Christian who believes that it was the same God in both the Old and the New Testament. How do we reconcile the seeming monstrous acts of God in the Old Testaments, with the selfless, sacrificial love that is the theme of the New?
I have some thoughts, but believe I would rather ask for opinions before expressing mine. How do you reconcile a God who destroys the world with a flood, destroys entire cities of people with fire, wipes out entire nations of people, causes kings to graze like wild animals, allows his chosen people to be enslaved and slaughtered multiple times, allows his prophets to call on bears to kill people for teasing them, etc., etc., etc., with a God who humbles himself to the point of becoming one of us and laying down His life for us? or Can you?
by C.S. Lewis, 
by Norman Geisler & Peter Bocchino, 
by Dinesh D’Souza, or 
by Ravi Zacharias. There are literally thousands of examples of such books, many written by graduates of Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Cambridge, and Oxford. The dilemma is that there are an equal number of books written by equally intelligent authors supporting a case for no God.
